Episode 51 – Destiny 2 Heresy Act 1: Full Breakdown & What You Need to Know

Ryan Game is saved for heaven. The game is yours to play now.

The light provides. This is Eventide Radio. Hello and welcome back to Eventide Radio. This is a fan made Destiny podcast where we have roundtable discussions about a variety of different topics concerning the popular video game franchise at its core. This shows by having in depth discussions about the game from a variety of different perspectives. I'm your host Scotty with me or my co host Rob and Mapador and today we have a lot to talk about. We haven't been on the mic in a couple weeks or so and Heresy just dropped. So there is a lot of stuff to talk about. There's a new seasonal activity, there's new story, there's new updates to, you know, all sorts of parts of the games like ritual activities and stuff. There's a new exotic mission, there's a new dungeon. There's so much stuff in Destiny right now. So this is a great time to talk about it. But before we get into it, as always, especially since it's been kind of a hot minute before since we've talked. Rob, what have you been up to this week in Destiny?

Everything and anything. I mean it's a brand new season, episode, whatever. It's a season I'm just gonna call it. I'll never, I'll never adapt to the episode because this is the last one of its kind anyway, so. Exactly. I have been enjoying it quite a bit, playing a lot, running some nether which we'll dive into a lot more. Just kind of been enjoying some of the overall changes I think. I feel like the changes that they made in the previous season for Not Hair. What was the previous season? Damn it.

Revenant.

Revenant. Thank you.

He's already forgotten it.

Yeah, I know. Have maybe sort of over tuned some things and they've. I feel like they've kind of throttled back and I feel like they're kind of reaching a good middle ground which we'll I guess dive into a little bit more. So I've been enjoying it. Like, I mean there's a lot of stuff, right. Farming, bog weapons, new dungeon, new activity that I think has a lot of like replayability changes to trials and PvP in general. So just kind of been drinking from the fire hose.

Nice. That, I mean that's. That feels good I assume, right? I mean to actually be playing a bunch of new stuff, I mean feeling.

In I. I played Revenant pretty extensively as well. Like I got the Slayer Baron title and I did the exotic mission at the end and so, like, I never really stopped playing, but I. This is kind of another one of those scenarios where I always feel like when a new. When a se. Like, you know, it's always the last season before an expansion comes out is always, like, the best. That's everyone's opinion. And so far, this is kind of shaping up to be true. Yep. And unfortunately, a bunch of people in my clan. Yes, fortunately, and unfortunately, fortunately, a bunch of people have come back to start playing, but they do this thing where they haven't played in such a long time, then they just play the ever living hell out of it for, like, two or three weeks, and then they just completely peter off after that, and they disappear again until the expansion comes out. And, like, I try to do more of, like, a slow burn because I want to accomplish all of the things. And, like, when the, you know, the new chapters come out, I intend on playing those and all of that stuff. And so it's like, it's fun for that first couple of weeks. And then my whole Fire team just sort of disappears again for, like, months. So right now it's good, but, you know, it's always what happens.

Yeah, no, I totally get that.

Marathon, not a sprint.

Exactly. Map, what have you been up to this week?

So I haven't really played Destiny that much. Until Heresy dropped, I didn't really play much of. I did the story stuff, but I didn't really play much of Revenant. I was gonna say, Rob, you reminded me I haven't done a seasonal title, I think, since Season of the Wish.

That's fair.

I know I had them all. I made sure I'd get every single one each season because it goes away.

Right.

And then I was busy because of work and couldn't finish it, and I was like, that's it. I'm never doing a seasonal title again. I've missed one. I'll miss them all. And kind of just went on strike for him, but I did. I've done the story stuff this week, obviously, I've done some. Never. I did some of you, Rob, but I did some more on my own.

Well, that's right.

Yeah.

I've done a bit of comp. I've. I avoided quick play and comp at the start because of Radiant Dance Machines.

Oh, yeah.

And last words. So that's gone, which is nice. However, there is something new we have to sort of worry about, but it's kind of under the radar a little bit. Only slightly, though. But I did some trials. The new trials really work, which is nice. And we can talk about that shortly. But I. I'd also forgotten they changed the vog weapons so I wouldn't actually mind running some vog. I mean, I would mind running vog, but you know, sorry, I had to get that one in there. But now I'll run some vog at some point to get some of the weapons.

What they do to the Vogue weapons.

They'Ve changed and they made them craftable.

Yeah.

Oh, yes.

Yeah, that's cool. I forgot about that. But I'm liking, I'm liking the season so far, which is. Which is good.

Me too.

It's giving me some. Some optimism.

As for what I've been up to, I've been playing the dungeon quite a bit. Anytime a new dungeon comes out, I'm always very excited because me and my buddies love new dungeons. I've played it three times so far. I think it's really good. We'll talk, we'll touch on it in a little bit. But that's where most of my time has been spent on Destiny lately. But also just getting caught up on the seasonal, the new stuff, exploring the nether. Just doing all the new stuff that's dropped. I haven't really touched trials or anything like you guys have, but it's been good.

So probably the best weekend to play trials.

Yeah.

So I would suggest doing a run either this weekend or next weekend.

Yeah.

Okay. I'll have to try it out. So let's start off by talking about the new stuff. So Heresy came out. When did Heresy come out? It wasn't. Wasn't last week, was it?

No, it's two. It's been two weeks now.

Two weeks.

Two weeks.

Yeah.

So they're doing one thing that I noticed. They didn't drop the entire story like they did with Revenant.

Thank God. Yeah.

I think that was the right decision.

It felt so demoralizing to be like, right, well, the next three steps of the quest are do the exotic mission over and over again.

Yeah.

Gonna have to do all three of them in the same day so I don't get spoiled by some twat on Reddit, Twitter, YouTube. Well, YouTube recommendations, you know.

Yep.

That sort of shy. Yeah.

So it is kind of nice, honestly. And I'm normally not like a huge fan of like drip feeding story content, but when it's like this and like you said, like, I don't want to be spoiled and I don't like that means I have to grind through the entire thing immediately because I don't want.

To be spoiled by. By some Idiot. Posting leaked dialogue audio on my YouTube recommendation that I had no. You know, like, I couldn't have avoided that unless I signed out of YouTube, which I'm not gonna do. But I actually think they got their video taken down because I think I saw them complaining about it on some other social media site, which is good. I'm glad Bungie going after things like that, because it just completely ruined. There's. It's like a big story thing, which I won't say, but. Yeah. And it's like, oh, that would have been nice to see come about naturally rather than. Yeah, but what do you guys think of the story so far?

You go first, Scotty.

I'm interested by it. Not a whole lot. Oh, okay. Actually, I take that back. A lot did happen. So. Yeah. Eris Morne gets stabbed by a subjugator in the very beginning. And I'm kind of torn on it because at first I was like, oh, shit, they actually did kill Eris Morne. But about five seconds later, you find out she is in what I presume to be her throne world or whatever, and she's not actually dead. Yeah. Which makes sense, right? That's totally fine. I feel like I would have been upset, honestly, ultimately, if I. If Eris Morn did die, to just some random subjugator guy would kind of suck. But you find out she's alive, like, pretty much immediately. And then for the rest of the dialogue that happens after that mission, you're talking to people and you're talking to Sloane and Drifter and Ikora and stuff, and they're like, oh, man. You know, it sucks that Eris is dead. We have to, like, you know, remember her and mourn her and stuff. And you're, like, paying respects to her, and it's like, guys, did any of you watch the cutscene? She's alive. So it's just kind of like.

I think the only reason they put that cutscene there is because of leakers. Yeah. I genuinely think that's the only reason why they did that.

It just felt strange because it just takes you out of it and you're like, all right, can you imagine if.

You found out through a leak that she was still alive?

That's true. I mean, I would rather find out through the game for sure.

Yeah.

I kind of assumed the moment she got killed that that was gonna be the punchline. Like, she's not really gone.

But it was also the fact he took her body as well. Like, yeah, true. There was that.

Which was badass, by the way. Like, he stabs her and then drags her body off the platform.

He filled it with stasis.

Yeah.

I really like this scene where Drifter is holding Eris's.

Oh, yeah. The performances are really good.

Calling her like moonlight instead of Moon, guys. I'm like, oh, my God. So that was really sweet.

His no was very convincing. Yes.

Yeah, yeah. 100%. My. I. One other critique, though, is that. So according. If you guys read the lore for, like, the Sunder Doctrine armor, I don't know if you guys. Do you guys clarify. You can spoil that.

You can.

You can spoil that.

That's fine.

So that subjugator. I mean, you could probably infer this, but I think I've heard this subtitle. He's like the first of the reshape. He's basically. He's like the first subjugator, first Dread or something like that.

Yeah.

I wish there was some sort of, like, visual indicator in his design.

I think his head is slightly different.

I wish there's something more than that.

He's the subjugator from the. From the final shape teaser. That's him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, That's. That's. That's him. It's John Subjugator.

John Subjugator kills Aristorne. I wish he was, like, a little bit. I wish there was something more to him that made him more significant as, like, more like.

Like, kind of like with Kaido, where they gave her, like, the feathers or something like that. Yeah, something.

I mean, even Kaidl's like, I think, like, way unique.

Like, super unique. Sure, sure, sure.

That would be awesome. But like, even just something small, like, I don't know, change the color of his stasis crystals to, like, something would be.

Now he's got a Trust shot hole in his face. So there's that.

Well, yeah, that's true.

Yeah.

The point playing Trust shot was like.

That was probably her first mistake is using Trust in any kind of activity.

Like, that's.

No, no, no.

Trust in 2025 is crazy.

Drifter used that Sunset in Beyond Light and that worked fine. He was one. Tapping all the. All the Fallen with it.

So, because that's the first mission, right? Like, Light level didn't really come into a play yet. So that's why it was okay in the. In that first area.

But it was. It was sunset. It was. It was gone.

Speaking of trust, though, I am dying to get. If we can ever get an animator on this show to talk about some little cutscenes, animations. I Loved Eris's little revolver spin in that one shot.

Yeah.

With like that. That like orbiting shot. And then, you know, Eris and Drift are like back to back. She does a little like revolver spin Trust. I'm like, oh, that's so sick. So I would love to get someone to talk about that. And just like the thought process of like, oh, like, how do we stage fight scenes and.

Yeah, well, I was going to say we won't. I don't think we'll have any high end CGI cutscenes anymore. So we'll probably have the. Just the in game ones.

Yeah, well, no, because we got the one.

The one in Revenant was pretty good.

It was.

It was probably. No, no. I mean the ones that were like the final shape cutscenes or those. Because the company who makes them doesn't exist anymore. So that's. Those two, I think were made either by Bungie or someone else. Like the. The one that plays at the start of the first episode as well with Saint and Osiris. It's the same style as.

Yeah, yeah.

It's the same style as the one in. In Revenant as well. Which is a cool cut scene.

Yeah.

Adding on to story stuff as far as like, what works, what doesn't. I think a good chunk of the story stuff that I'm super interested in right now comes from the dungeon. To be honest with you. A lot of the lore in the dungeon is actually really cool and kind of the implications of what is happening there is really neat and I'm very intrigued to see where that goes you don't normally see with dungeons. I think they've been doing a really good job of making these dungeons actually have some sort of story implication or at least just being this supplemental material.

They sort of start. I mean, they've always sort of been that. But I think the first sort of inkling of that major story stuff was with prophecy.

I agree.

Yeah.

That was like the first time they tried to make it connected to the rest of the narrative for sure.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I mean, what's the. I'll never remember the first one. The Ascendant Shad from Shattered Throne has tie into the story. And I think actually. Yeah.

Even more so.

Yeah. With Forsaken that it works. And it's unfortunate that the first dungeon was like, you can only play it once every three weeks or whatever because it was like tied in with the.

Yeah.

And like from like a story perspective. I totally get it from a. Like, hey, I want to do this dungeon whenever I feel like it, that was a terrible decision and I'm glad that they fix that eventually.

Like, I feel like it was cool at first. Yeah, it was very cool at first.

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like all of the dungeons have had some level of decent involvement. Maybe Spire of the Watcher is a little bit of a, like, probably the, maybe the weakest, but I think a lot of them, like Pit of Heresy, even like not a fan of that dungeon, but it still has like a rel. Oh, and duality. I just, I don't know, I just don't like duality for a few different reasons.

But that's fair understandable.

I, I, I agree with you that I think a lot of they've done a good job with the, the dungeons really feeling like they have a purpose in the bigger. Because they're, they're here to stay. Like the, the raids and. Yeah, and I almost feel like the dungeons are more story heavy than the raids are where it's like the raids, you just feel like, okay, you're confronting like the big baddie from that season or from that expansion. But the, the raids feel like they've, or, I'm sorry, the dungeons feel like they've got more like, intent and love behind them. You know what? I, I take that back. I, I know this is gonna make Scotty happy, but grasp of avarice is also kind of like, there's not much there.

Terrible.

Yeah, it's not terrible, but it's, I mean, really in the big scheme of things, like moving the story along, it's probably the weakest because it's, because it's its own little. Like it's the 30th anniversary, like, kind of just nod and, and like. But in terms of actually moving the story, it's probably, probably the weakest.

I love that. I mean, Sunder doctrines, like, talking about the origin of the Dread and then like, characterizing them and how they feel and like, what their goals are going forward is like, something I've been really wanting since Final Shape. So this is like, answering some of my burning questions and filling holes that I have had since then.

So it's like.

And we got it really filling a good spot and we got it within the year that they were introduced as opposed to like, mm, there's a lot of things where, yeah, there wasn't like, a revelation on them for like, years potentially. And, and you know, like, I feel like it's good that we're. Here's a new character or a new enemy race that was introduced and by the way we'll actually give you enough information early enough on that you get some kind of motivation behind them, so.

Yeah, exactly. As far as the. The main seasonal story, there's not like, a ton I can comaton besides that opening, but I'm definitely interested to see, like, where the mystery is headed. And I love that Savathun is involved and has actual dialogue and actually, like, shows up and everything. Like the scene where you go to her throne world and she shows up and she's like, stay out of this family thing.

And so in regards to the story, I don't disagree with you. I have been having trouble actually following past that cutscene, and I feel like we can kind of dive into this a little bit more. Is. That's fair with the opening, right? They. They announced that there was going to be dialogue missing due to the. The writer strike. And was that what it was for?

I thought so.

No. It's the voice act.

Destroying voice actors, not writers. Like, voice actors. Yeah, it's a. It's a strike, and that's.

It's against AI using people's voices. So people who are getting annoyed about no dialogue suck it up and support voice actors.

Yeah.

I did not know the reason.

I think it's fine. It's just. It's unfortunate that, like, I'm all for strikes and unions and, like, I think it's good that they're doing that. And this feels like the Bungie did kind of the responsible thing by just not having their dialogue be replaced by AI. Like, I. That's. That's good and fine. It's just really unfortunate because the way the dialogue is, like, delivered instead where you, like, go, like. Because they also tried to do this new thing where it's like, you don't go to the tower constantly to, like, watch a hologram projection to advance the season. Right. Like, so what they did instead is, like, you go to orbit and you get dialog that kind of fills in the blanks and stuff. The unfortunate thing is I never know who's talking, and most of the time when I go into orbit, I'm looking at, like, menu stuff. And so, like, the captions sort of are hard to read in your menu, and it doesn't do a great job of, like, telling you who's saying what. Like, I think, like, usually right at the beginning, it'll have, like, a little box indicating, like, who's saying it, but then it's like, you're not sure if there's a conversation going on or if it's just one person. Talking at you and like, like, it's really unfortunate that they tried this new delivery system, which I appreciate that you did in conjunction with the strike, so that it's like, I almost wish that we had the hologram thing because you'd have a picture of who's talking to you and you get that little summary at the end so you can just read it instead. Like, I like it just it. They cannot catch a break with the stars aligning right now. And it's really unfortunate. Like, I'm glad that there's. Or I'm not glad that there's a strike, but I'm glad that they're doing a responsible thing in regards to the strike. It just does not work well. And I have no idea from like, a story perspective, like, what's going on entirely, like, with this past week. I don't know what the story was of, like, why I went back into the Nether. And I also have a bug that apparently not everyone has where some audio is supposed to play when you're in orbit, but not all of it. But I don't get any audio playing when I go into orbit.

So I have heard the dialogue.

I've heard any dialogue when I'm in orbit. So I don't know what's going on.

Neither have I.

And that's. This goes back into. It's. This bug. This season is not nearly as buggy as last season, but holy. Like, it's. It is just the perfect storm of, like, bad things to happen. And it's. It's pretty rough. Like, I. I know with like, they. And. And they. They also said they were trying new things. Like, like, oh, you'll get like a hologram projection, like, part way through a story mission. And they kind of did that with this week where you have to descend down into Savathun's like, little temple in that, like, the chasm. The. The lava chasm area, which is still one of the coolest design areas. I wish there was more that we did there or that they made like a PvP map in that area because it's a cool design. But like, when you go like, the drifter kind of pops out of your ghost or whatever and starts talking to you and then Savathun shows up. So, like, I think from like a story beat perspective, like, I'm glad I'm not going to a hologram projector and getting stuff. But I almost wish this season because we don't have voice actors that we did. I hate saying that. Like, it just like they should have. And I know, like, they probably got to a certain point where they realized strike was going on. Well, we've already committed to this design in the season because there's a lag time and design and yada yada. Like, I'm not trying to backseat Dev or whatever the term is, the. The gamer chair Dev. Like, I'm not trying to do that, but, like, because I. I am sympathetic to that. All of these things take egregious amounts of time, and who knows how far back they had set all this stuff up. And, like, you can tell some of the. Some of the dialogue's been recorded already and things like that, but, man, this was not the season to. To move away from the hologram thing. If you don't have voice acting, like, it's really unfortunate. And I. I would say that's like the kind of the outstanding thing where I think it's really a detriment to the season in terms of, like, story delivery. And I know it's for a good cause, but it's just like, God, this sucks. Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm trying to be sympathetic, and it's just. It is like, it could not have been a worse set of circumstances to kind of have everything set up or work out this way.

If it's. If it's any condolence to you, I feel like most of the dialogue that you might be missing, like, in orbit is just kind of Sloan just saying, like, we gotta go find out what's happening. And there is drifter dialogue.

Maybe you just happen to not get the drifter one in orbit.

That's supposed to be drifter dialogue.

See?

Exactly.

I get drifter dialogue.

Right? That's. That's what I'm saying. It's like, I don't know who's talking. I just see words come up.

You know what it might actually be, depending on where you are in the quest. Because I haven't finished the quest, so I get the same drifter dialogue over and over and over again.

So maybe steps into a very deep. Well, no. So maybe the same one you get all the time.

No, no, no. It's him about Savathun and power in the Dreadnought and Throne world. And. But I think maybe depending where you are in the quest, you get different dialogue. So maybe this step I'm at, because I haven't done any more, is drifter dialogue. But the steps that you've always happened to be at where you haven't. Where you've had the dialogue play where Salone is, and that.

That could be. It it's just.

Yeah.

Crummy if that's the case. Because it's.

Yeah, because that's.

That's like, I'm at the step right now where it's like, wait until next week.

Only had Drifter dialogue. Like, I've only had Drifter. So. But I kind of got to that step and then haven't done any more. So that could be why. Whereas you've obviously done it. So that could be.

That could be so slight gear shift. Let's talk about the new activity. The Nether. It is a. I'll just spoil right now. I am like, super excited about this activity. It is like their proper, real, like, roguelike activity.

Yes.

It's like the thing that they were saying Conscious of Elders was going to be, but it absolutely was not.

I hope they add a roguelike game mode into Destiny that stays is a permanent seasonal. It's just, you know, it's there. It's part of the game.

I hope this sticks around. I have a feeling that it won't, but I.

Well, no, it's gonna go in the bin, isn't it?

I know. Same and same with Contest of Elders. Like, I. I. Like this has been kind of the season of like, what have we got in the back catalog that people have been asking for, like, well, more Vex, like and Maya Sundaresh stuff while we check that box off. Oh, people want prison of Elders in some way. Well, let's do Contest of Elders. Oh, people want the Dreadnought back. Well, let's do that. And like. And it's unfortunate because, like, I wanted them to have a little more staying power than, like, this. This short season that they're in. And I kind of get the feeling that it's not gonna be. And it's really unfortunate because I think more than anything, the aesthetic changes that they've made to the Dreadnought, where it literally feels like the flesh is being pulled off and revealing. Like, the bone underneath is such a.

Cool on the weapons as well.

And the weapons are exquisite.

Very good.

And I could not be like, they. They brought the Dreadnought back. And it feels like the Dreadnought, like, every location that you're at, you know where you're at with respect to, like, the OG Dreadnought. And that's cool. Like, they didn't. They didn't ruin it by like. And they. And is you pointed out map that I didn't even kind of put two and two together. Is the cabal that are. There are explicitly like, not the Sand Eaters.

What are the Dust Giants?

The Dust Giants, like, they're the ones that should be there, and they have. They look like the dust giants from D1.

Give us the Primus or we blow this.

Yeah. And they're not. They didn't just inject, like, some, like, Red Legion. Red Legion sprites in there. Like, they're actual legit from. They look like the ones from D1. And, like, it feels like the Dreadnought and it feels like what maybe should have happened to it over the last 10 years. It's. It's been maybe, like, degrading and. And decrepifying into. And changing into whatever. This, like, hideous changes and. And sort of reflects that. And I think it's wonderful. And. And, yeah, it's. It's more than anything. And I'm glad that they did this. It's fun to just kind of walk around and explore.

Totally.

Yeah. And I. It sounds like they're doing some kind of Court of Oryx activity in. In Part two, based on some of the triumphs that you can kind of see. So it's like, yeah, if. If they do something where you go back. Like, I. I was one of those people that. I like to just hang out in Court of Oryx and, like, help people get things done. Right. Because you needed those, like, tributes.

Yeah.

And so, like, people wanted to just, like, stack up, and it was a good way to get decent rewards at the time during, like, the Taken King era. So it's like, I went back even. Even other times that I've gone back and played D1, like, long after D1 was sort of sunset. Like, I'll just hang out in the Court of Oryx and help random blueberries who clearly have no idea what they're doing. And, like, it's such a cool, like, activity and location that I'm. They brought it back in the right way. But I'm sad because it's probably not gonna stick around, and that bums me out.

Yeah, that's true. I mean, especially considering this is the last episode in this, like, lifespan thing. So it's gonna have the shortest lifespan out of everything.

I know.

Which is such a bummer. Yeah. Because, I mean, it would have been different if it was, like, the first episode instead, where it sticks around for a whole year. But if it. It's just gonna be a couple months. Kind of sucks.

Whatever Contest of Elders, or whatever the hell it was called last season. I was not as. Like, it felt like Prison of Elders. Ish. But it wasn't like you went to Familiar locations. Like, you kind of went into, like, kind of the back alley areas of them, or they're so far, like, warped from what they used to look like that they. They don't really resemble their D1 counterparts. So, like, if that goes away, I'm okay with it, especially since they kind of didn't do a great job of recreating Prison of Elders that I was naively hoping that they would. Whereas this.

It's gonna go away.

And I'm not broken up about that, but I. I am pretty bummed out if. If this goes away, because this is such a cool space to hang out in.

Yeah.

Right.

I agree. The activity is, like, I think, really cool.

Yes.

And the amount of, like, secrets and little things you can find is just, like, crazy. There's so many different, like, currencies to find, and there's, like, different, like, events that happen.

The taken worms.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's. There's stuff all over the place. I was just like, oh, my gosh, this is so cool. Like, I spent, like, an hour and a half in the. For the first time I did it, I'm like, that was the longest seasonal activity I've ever played.

Right. And there's.

There's just so much little, like, nooks and crannies to explore and secrets to uncover, and it's. It's super fun. It's super cool, and I love that health is, like, a currency, like they said.

Oh, yeah.

Which is.

Is really, really cool.

That's very cool.

It feels like there are, like, stakes involved, especially, like, if you're playing, like, solo. I think it's. It's. It's even cooler. I also kind of love that there's, like, no music for most of it. I think that's, like, a cool, like, just atmospheric thing. I think there are so many different, like, encounters that it feels very, like, varied and interesting. And you could kind of play them in the, like, the order you want to play them.

Right.

Kind of. It sort of feels different enough every time that it's, like, you know, interesting. It just. All around, it feels good. The. The bones you pick up feel like.

Oh, the stasis slide or the.

Yeah, exactly.

Very good.

Never pick up Fragile strength, though. Oh, my God. That.

I don't even know what that one is.

The Kiss curse ones are, like, a little too.

The curse ones are a little.

The negative. The negative seem too much, like.

Yeah, yeah. Like, fragile strength is, like, for context map. It's like you do more damage to enemies, but you take more damage in return.

Oh, yeah, I've seen that one.

I've done a thing.

The damage you take is, like, kind of brutal. It feels like. And like, the bosses are cool. It's just. I just. All around, it's just. I feel like it. It feels very good. It's pretty rewarding too. There's chests all over the place. You get rolls. There's like, the gold border ones, which have, like, double perk columns.

Oh, yeah. I've had about. I've had about three or four of those, and I've only done, like, four runs of, like, the actual game mode. Like, I haven't.

Feels like a good channel. Craftable. Yeah.

Yeah.

Just. Just all feels good.

But yeah, I. So the prospect when they first kind of announced the health being a currency. So for. For context, I. I play some Roguelites. Like, I play ftl. I play Slay the Spire. Those are kind of the. The two big ones that I've. I've dabbled with. I've looked. I played a little bit of, like, Hades and things like that too. But those are kind of the two. The two big ones. And they. Especially in Slay the Spire, they do a really good job of making health actually feel like a currency, where there are encounters where you can give up, like, half of your max life, but then you get cards that explicitly, like, heal you all the time and things like that, where that actually feels like a currency. And at the beginning of the season, I would have agreed more with that sentiment, but kind of in. In typical bungee fashion, I really am kind of disappointed by this. They're. They. They sort of like, on day one, they're like, yeah, certain weapons are not giving or, like, certain health rewards are not working the way they're supposed to. And, like, things like Unrelenting and the Arc Titan Melee were giving back, like, all of the health, and they weren't supposed to.

Yeah. And so I didn't notice that.

And so. So this last Tuesday, the. What day is that? The 11th. They already came out with a patch to, like, fix these things. Or was it the 11th or 13th? Maybe it was on Thursday. But regardless, I feel like they overtuned it. And now everything just feels like your health comes back too easily. And I kind of liked it the way it was before because it actually did feel like you had to play with your health in mind. And that to your point, Scotty, where it's like you could attack whatever encounter you wanted to in whatever order. Right. When you first load into an area, you can kind of survey and go oh, the twins that shield each other are hanging out over here. Like, let me go take out those guys first, because I. I have my super ready and I can probably nuke them pretty quickly, you know. And like, and when you had. When health was more critical, you actually had to take into consideration, like, oh, well, I need more health pots. I need to go find them somewhere. I can't really do this activity right now. Like, the one where you have to like, escort the giant, like fire stone all the way from one thing to another, and the whole time you're just getting attacked by bats. Like, Like, I'm not going to touch that until I know I've got enough health to. To. To kind of sustain that, right? So it's like, before I feel like it was actually played a factor and it felt slightly more challenging, but now it's like, I did an expert the other day after the changes, and it was like I had my health all the way up the entire time and I only died at the very end to the giant taken meatball with the stupid like void spikes everywhere. And it's like. So I feel like they keep doing this where it's like they don't even give it time to like, cook, where it's like it comes out and immediately a bunch of people who are probably not going to play past the first week anyway because they're losers. I'm just gonna say it because there's a bunch of people that do that, right? They come out with like a new expansion comes out, they play it, they complain about it a bunch, and then they just, they. They out like right at the beginning. And it's like, you didn't. You didn't give it a fair chance. You didn't let them really see if they. Where they were taking it. And so like, Bungie's already kind of like gone back on it and fixed a bunch of things. Like, yeah, they probably should have fixed unrelenting in the Titan thing. But I kind of liked how it was before where it's like, devour didn't immediately give you all your health back. And like health orbs that you or orbs of power didn't immediately replenish everything. Like, yeah, they gave you little chunks of health and you could feel it. But like, I feel like they should have stood their ground a little bit more and go, no, we really think this is what's healthy for this gameplay mode. Because there was a couple times where I ran another and it was like, oh, we only have one health revive left. We need to Play smarter because we still have to defeat the boss, right? And it's like that actually felt like a little bit more of like a we could fail this activity, which there's not. There's not enough of those anymore. Like, all you have really are Grandmaster Nightfalls. That's the only thing that you can like fail and actually have to go back to orbit and do over from the beginning. And they need to do more stuff like that. And so I liked the idea of like, oh, you've got this like really simple where you can. You have the explorer mode where nothing really hits you that hard. You've got a lot more revive tokens. You're encouraged to go explore the Dreadnought. Great. But if you're going to. If you're going to throw as many rewards as you at me as they have, it needs to be in a more difficult context. And I think the, like with the. The major boons and the. The minor boons, like, especially when you start getting some of those going where it's like I. There was one where all the stars align and I think I got like 10 of the grenade recharge. Like minor boons. By the end I was there and I was like. I felt like I could just chuck nades to my heart's content. And it was awesome because it like felt like I. I kind of felt that return. I would say maybe my only request or hope was that the minor boons were also like, you could choose rather than just like seemingly like you break a health potion and oh, now there's like a minor boon and of course I'm going to pick it up. But it would be cool if you could like, roll for it because, like, maybe you're trying to get all the.

Way up, give an extra choice.

Yeah, exactly. Where it's like, don't just give me this, like, let me go. Oh no. I want to stack all of the boss resistance ones I want or all the class resistance ones I want. Because I picked up the major boon that gives me health every time I activate my class ability. And now I've got this Omega Fast class ability recharge. Well, now I'm just a healing monster. Like that, I think would actually. That's like the last little link, I think, to really making it feel like a true Roguelite where you're. You're. Every time you play, you're building into a specific theme of like, I'm doing all grenades and I want as much damage as I can against bosses. So those are the two things I'm going to be looking for now maybe I have to pick up a slide stasis because that's the only thing I have available. But like, give me. Give me a little more power of choice. And then I think you have like the perfect. And this is where I think the coil did it a little bit better, where every time you. You finished around there was a lot more to choose from. And I think it, it gave a little bit more into the idea of like doing a quote unquote build for that run that kind of played to your strengths. And there was a couple of times in coil where I'd get to that first reward screen and it's like, oh, it's all solar and I'm running a void subclass. Looks like I'm swapping over to solar. And I feel like I haven't been forced to really do that in the nether where it's like I just go in running whatever build I start with and I can just kind of finish it through because there's nothing that really. There's no min maxing that kind of forces me to go one direction or the other. So I think like, if you close that gap, then I feel like you have a good formula that you can kind of expand upon where it's like, make me be a little more deciding with like what I go for. Because right now it's just. I pick up every minor boon and before I know it, I've got moderately good class ability, moderately good grenade recharge, moderately good melee. Oh, and I can do this slide thing, but I didn't really feel like thematically I chose anything.

Yeah, I agree. I think you can't choose any of the minor points.

Yeah.

And I, I feel like that's like the one, the one thing I would, I would change about it. But otherwise it is a cool. It's so neat. I. I just. Yeah. All the exploration and I'm still finding new secrets. Like, every time I go through, I'm like, okay, I found everything in this area. Like, I know it like the back of my hand. It's like, oh, now there's a new altar that I can summon these fires and a boss will spawn. I had never noticed that before either because I wasn't paying attention or I. The previous run that I did, it wasn't there. And so it's like.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, it's. It's full of secrets and it does a good job of every time you run through it. Like, it feels like you're kind of something new to find. And that's awesome.

My only. My other critique would be just. It does feel if you're playing it like. If you're playing the three person like arena mode and you're playing it like as like part of a quest line where it's like, go into the nether. Go do stuff in the nether. It does feel. It's a little slow and it's a little long as opposed to some other seasonal activities. If you had a nitpick.

Yeah.

And play devil's advocate. But no, I really, I really like it too.

Yeah.

Map. How are you feeling about it?

I like, I like it. I do. I do wish those seasonal activities weren't as long.

Yeah.

Why they need to be. But I do find it's like, huh. I'll do a run of never. Okay. That's gonna probably be half hour, 40 minute run, depending on what people are doing.

Right.

I like the exploring aspect of it. Obviously I want to find all the collectibles, but if I just want to get in and get out, I don't want to. I don't want to waste my time, but I also don't want to waste someone else's time who does want to get the collectible stuff. And like. All right, yes, you can go in with a pre made team to do that and blitz it. But I, I placed the seasonal activities less since they've got longer.

Yeah.

Because they went from being like strike length, sometimes even shorter than that to now being longer. Like I could get three strikes done in that time.

Right.

All right. Depending on the strike. I know they have made strikes longer now and they've obviously changed the short ones. But I feel like there should be two things in a season where you get one longer game mode, one short one. Like, I know it's a roguelike, so you typically can't have it be that short. Specifically, this is just a general, I say critique of the seasonal activities that they are getting longer. Yeah, they feel like they are. But I like the roguelike part in it. I'd like there to be a permanent version of that.

Yeah.

More fleshed out maybe. You know, where you eventually get some really crazy ones. The further you go in, it gets really difficult. Yeah. But like a permanent stain in. In Destiny. Like how Onslaught is, you know, its own game mode. But I think it's good. Obviously the setting helps. I think if it was in a different place, people wouldn't like it as much. But I mean, that's going to be like anything. Yeah. But it's in a familiar place that's got some new secrets to it, which is very cool. The enemy density is fine. The puzzles in it, if you want to call them puzzles, are fine. They're not like, they're quick to do. They're not difficult. You know, you're not going to get matched with randoms and think, oh, my God, you know, what is going on.

Right.

And it take too long. So that's. That's nice. It's very rewarding. I've got a lot of stuff. I've had four of the curated rolls of the guns, which is cool. The gear for this season is pretty nice as well. It's nice, you know, it's just nice being back in the Dreadnought.

Yep.

I think after a while, like, I like some parts of Savathun's throne world, but I prefer the dreadnought hive design sort of thing. I prefer it when it's weird and cavy and. But like cavey in the sense of it's hive architecture in a cave. Not hot. You know, a cave near hive architecture, if that makes sense. Like the moon or. Yeah, the throne world, where there's that cave system.

Yeah.

So that's nice. I always feel bungee nail the Hive stuff. I feel like they've got that on, like, lockdown when it comes to their presentation. I feel like maybe the reason those sees, like, the better the expansion with the characters that they're using, the future content's better. Like, we haven't had a VEX DLC and we haven't had a good fallen dlc. So I feel like when we get seasonal content around them, it just kind of falls flat because we haven't had this whole thing. I don't. I think I've just note. I've just sort of realized this. I think because it's less fleshed out. Like, you know, when you have an expansion, you. You flesh out these. These races and you sit there and you have like a new tile set or new stuff to do with them. Whereas the last time we had fallen stuff, it was beyond light, which, you know, this is beyond light. And then VEX haven't really had their own. They just kind of slapped on to all the other ones. So when it comes to making seasonal content for them, it always kind of falls flat a little bit. But with the Cabal and the Hive, it tends to do better.

Yeah, fair.

And maybe that's an aspect of it, but I think it's good. I probably won't play it as much as you guys, but I think it's good. Yeah.

I'm liking it too. And I agree. It's kind of like it's a little long.

Yeah.

Which would be my only.

I wouldn't. I think I wouldn't have minded my job. I'm busier than I was when I was working before, so I think there's that aspect. But that's like going to be most people, like.

Sure.

I feel less inclined to. To play that just because. Yeah, because I'm like, oh, you know, like, I like doing bits of work in between stuff. So I'll go into a PvP match or two, I'll do a bit of work, I'll come back, you know, Whereas if I'm doing the never, it's like. Oh, that's like 40 minutes.

Yeah. Yep.

Yeah.

I think they. They kind of. You brought this up to Map with like, Onslaught and there's kind of an interesting. And then we had this with like the coil where there's like the short version where it's like basically one round. And I'm. I'm actually surprised they didn't do that with the Nether that there's not like you just load into one of the four areas.

Do you think it's because of the Court of Oryx thing that they're not doing that?

Yeah, it could be like they're kind of waiting for that to be that activity. I will say they, they. There's. There's so many different groups of people and like what you're trying to do and. And you can't please everybody, but it's like, you know, onslaught. There's kind of this general consensus that like 10 waves is kind of short, but 50 is kind of long. And it's another thing where you're committing to at least an hour to do a 50 wave. And really it'd be nice if there was like a 30 wave version. And I think with like Nether, if there was like maybe a one or two room version versus like committing to doing a three room, that might go over better. But then you really aren't fleshing out the Ray or the Roguelite part of it where it's. It's not, you know, you're not really actualizing all the different kind of buffs and boons and all that things that you get from it. But I think. Sure, yeah. And, and. But we've seen this with other iterations of it too, where it's like, you know, something that they, they dabbled with with Season of the Witch that I kind of liked. But I think it was maybe the wrong Context was there was that one activity where you basically load in and you just stay there indefinitely as long as you have those boons or whatever they were called they use. The boons is used for like everything in this game. Like it's, it loses. It's what it means. It's like the number of times they use like pinnacle to describe different things. Right. We've had pinnacle weapons and we pinnacle rewards. Right. It's like stop calling things boons. Like, stop. But like, you know, that was kind.

Of ball shaped just.

I know, I know, I know. Yeah. Where it's like, you know, that was a cool idea where it was like an endless mode but people didn't really like that much. But I think that's more because it was not very rewarding. Whereas, like I would be intrigued by and I think people have kind of talked about this and I would be curious to see how many people would actually do it is if they did like an endless mode for onslaught where like you keep going past 50 waves. Now there's probably some limitation to like memory and you know, other things, but it would be really cool to see how high people could actually push the difficulty on onslaught where yeah, eventually you're playing the same bosses over and over again, but it gets escalatingly more and more difficult, but the rewards are getting more and more worth it. And eventually get to the point where you literally have like every trap and every turret is like maxed out because you're just going to those three locations over and over again on the map. Like I want to, I want to see like a truly endless mode. And I think nether you could do something like that too, right? Where it's like you just, you clear out those three, but then you keep going and you go to the fourth room and then you repeat back to the first one and like you keep getting more and more of the, the boons and maxing everything out and seeing how like crazy powerful you can get against harder and harder kind of difficulty. Like, I, I, I think there needs to be shorter things, but there also should be more longer things for people that want to commit to more than like an hour and push their builds to see how far they can go. Because right now like, and this kind of goes back to what I was saying before, like, it's as it stands, you get to that third wave and it's still pretty easy. And I want to see more things where it's like, oh, it's a high risk, high reward. Where it's like, oh, you're pushing harder and harder content but if you run out of revive tokens, you're out and then you have to start over again. And I really wish that they would do more stuff like that where it's like yeah, you can always play the, the very like simple 10 wave mode or one round mode and get rewards and you're still gonna have a good time. You're not committing a whole lot like you said map. Like you're, you're playing effectively a strike or EVP match but like have there be something for the higher end that actually really pushes builds and in interesting ways. And again it could be a limitation due to like memory and hardware and software and you know, maybe, maybe nether barely holds on the way it does. I don't know. But like I would love to see kind of more on both directions. More like shorter game modes and like endless type things as well.

It would be kind of cool to have a proper endless mode.

Yeah. And I think honest, I think onslaught is, is the, the skeleton for that. I think that plays in perfectly to just. Right. You even have waves and you just have a counter that just goes up higher and higher and someone's gonna get to wave 250 or some egregiously large number because people play this game for eight or ten hours at a time. Like I want to see, I want to see what that looks like. And you know, it's like basically every reward is like an exotic dumping out on you. But it's like, you know, you're rewarded for being that good. Yeah. And put. And put cosmetic rewards. Right. Put. Put an emblem or a shader or something that like only a small group of people have because it's like you grinded your ass off and are that good that you got to you know, wave 100 and onslaught.

I agree and I think, I think they want to do it. They just haven't figured out the best way to do it.

Right. Yeah.

I mean are they. I think the problem is, is they. I think they gave us another onslaught mode too soon.

Yeah.

I think you know, in, in Revenant when they gave us the new onslaught mode, people were like, oh yeah, onslaught. And then I think people were kind of bored of it. Whereas if they waited longer.

Yeah.

And gave us a more fleshed out version later on, it would have been better.

Like if it came out now, it might be better because like.

Or with frontiers.

Yeah, you're with front. Or if they kind of did it as like another. Didn't they say they're going to do like another kind of into the light type dealy this season. Yeah. Right. So if it's like every year we got new like a couple new maps added because I agree with you. Like, I think when, when it was announced that like Onslaught was coming back, it's a cool. And then after like doing a few of them, you're like, oh, that's right. I just spent the last couple months before Final Shape came out playing this ad nauseam and it's still a little too soon too samey. Yeah. And it. And that's always kind of a problem that Bungie's had too, where it's like that, that fomo, like I still stand by this. Where it's like if, if that's gonna be a deep cut. If Sparrow Racing League was not shoved down your throat for three weeks straight, I think people would play it more over like a longer span of time. But it's basically like you had to play it to get certain rewards and you only had three weeks and then it was gone forever. And then it's like so you're, you're basically every waking moment of your next release.

Srl Give us Wrath of the Machine. Whole community's happy.

Well, I'm just saying like stop doing these like monkeys.

Poor effect. We get the SRL version of Rachel Erase Axis.

With into the light. It's like, oh, we have these shiny weapons, but you can only earn them for the next like three weeks or a month.

Yeah. So everyone blitzwel.

You're forcing yourself to play that activity non stop and then you're burning yourself out on it. And so the next.

And then it came back a few months later.

Yeah, you're like still kind of like recovering from the trauma that was your life of playing Onslaught non stop. And it's like they, they need to just like they shouldn't have had the shinies be in an exclusive thing. Like, would people have played Onslaught less? Yeah, maybe not because it was still new content that was kind of placeholder before Final Shape came out. But ultimately like I, they do they do this to themselves where it's like they, they, they said they're trying to move away from fomo, but they still find different ways to like inject it where it's like probably not healthy long term for like people wanting to play the activity. But then I say that and it's like, you know, people max their rank out on whatever the new reputation is. The first week of a season coming out. It's like, guys, you've got four months or five Months to play this. Like, pace yourself. No, no, I gotta get it all done in a week. Like, all right, but then you're the one who's going on Reddit and complaining there's nothing to do. So it's like, I don't know what the solution is. I'll stop talking.

No, he was cooking. He was cooking. I don't think you need to have a solution to present a problem. I think that's. That's totally valid and I think we're going to get something. It's just not today. But anyways, to switch gears, let's talk about. Because, Rob, I know you've been dying to talk about trials. What's. What's new on that front. I have not touched it in months upon months, so I have no idea what the hell is going on. But I know you were mentioning it.

Yeah, the biggest fundamental change, and there's actually a whole, like, article on Crucible changes that they came out with like two or three weeks ago. But the biggest number one thing is you no longer need to go flawless to go to the Lighthouse. That's like if you were to tldr it. What that means, though, is they got rid of the traditional passages of like, passage of confidence, passage of mercy. And there was the other passage to get. Oh, passage of wealth or whatever. Right. Where.

Passage of. Passage of what? I said passage of passage.

Passage of passages. And now there's two passages. One is passage of trials or whatever that basically just lets you play Trials of Osiris and it tracks your wins and you. It's almost like someone summoned in my clan summed it a best. It's basically like iron banner at that point where you just. It's like a weekend event. You just play, you get rewards, you get decent rewards, you get good reputation. Ultimately, you're still moving up the trials track. You're able to get the engrams that you can then convert to learning or getting weapons. Super rewarding, fun, very non committal in terms of like, it tracks your wins, but you're also playing against other people that aren't being super sweaty either. So. Good. Good on them. Great. Then there's also passage of lighthouse, which is what most people are going to want to eventually graduate to because that does track your win streak in addition to your wins. And when you get seven wins, regardless of how many losses you have or what your highest win streak is, you can now go to the Lighthouse and you will get a set amount of rewards. And it's actually detailed pretty heavily. There's A bunch. A bunch of different. Like if you did this and this, and you got this many win streaks, then you have. Your rewards are this, this, and this. And so you are incentivized and encouraged to go on the best win streak that you can. But ultimately, even if you get, like two wins, there is still a slight chance, I think it's like 60%, that you will get an adept weapon. When you open the chest at the lighthouse, you can do it as many times as you want, but there is kind of a. Once you've gotten the two win streak reward, the next time you go to the lighthouse, your rewards will be less unless you get more win streaks on your next card. So you still want to reset it after you go to the lighthouse because you can go back to the lighthouse and earn more rewards. But it is. You basically have to do a little bit better each time. But the punchline is. If you really want to just know, like, okay, what. What does this matter? Is you basically, if you get at least a three win streak on your lighthouse card, you are guaranteed a 100 chance of getting at least one adept weapon when you open the chest if you do it solo. So getting. Getting adept trials, rewards and map. I want to say that you called this because you were the one that said, like, oh, it's probably going to scale based on how many wins you get or whatever. And you were absolutely right. That's how they did it.

Yeah.

I think it. After kind of reading it and playing it, I think it's one of the best things they could have done. Because even if, like, I. I think.

This is the best change that's come to trials, other than, like, yeah, yeah, all right. It's no longer how it was before, but I think this is the. This is the way it had to be.

Right.

Like, even as someone who likes the really competitive nature of, you know, how it was at its peak, you know, competitive trials and at its height, I. I think this is the way it had to be. And as I said to you, Rob, earlier, what's good now is that where it's more accessible and it's way more rewarding that you're going to get. People who don't normally play PvP want to play trials. They're going to go into trials and think, I want to get better. I want to get on a win streak. So I'm going to go practice in quick play.

Right.

So you get more people. Like, okay, it's not going to increase the numbers that much, but it's going to add to the numbers of people playing PvP, which is always a good thing, right?

Yeah. So I would say it's overall healthy, especially in this week. You find matches super quick because there's a ton of people in there playing. There's also. You're also encouraged.

I normally, I normally in between each game when I'm waiting to load in, I'll normally do a set of weights or whatever, you know, press ups, whatnot in between each game.

That's cool.

I did not have time to do that.

Yeah, yeah. It finds people quick.

Yeah.

And you're also encouraged to play in a fire team. I think the larger your team if you do like, if you if for every win on your card, if you do it with a three man team, it. It is an escalatingly higher likelihood of getting an additional adept drop when you finally get to the lighthouse. And there's kind of other things along the way. So like I did yesterday, I did a three man team on all seven wins and we had a seven win streak. And so when we got to the lighthouse, I got four adept drops in my, in my chest in addition to a bunch of other things, like I got the shader. There's ciphers that you can get, which ultimately you can then turn into more adept weapons if you want at Osiris, so. Or I mean it's Saint 14, so it is way, way, way more rewarding. All you need to do is watch like some streamer. Go to the lighthouse on a seven win card or with seven win streak card and it just poops loot out you like.

Yeah, nobody gives you so much. It gives you so much stuff.

And so it's great. It encourages the. Okay, I'm still gonna go for my seven win streak because that is still the most rewarding. But now that they have made it, you could play solo. As long as you get three wins in a row somewhere on your card, you're guaranteed at least one adept drop.

And like if they the. The guns that they're giving out in trials, they get rid of obviously the cheating problem, which is an ongoing thing. You know, genuinely, I don't really see an issue with trials currently.

Yeah.

And it's other. You know, like the only problem that trials will always have is, is player numbers. If the player numbers go down, trials gets worse. But right, the way it stands now, if it continues to be this, you know, around this player count, right. And this rewarding, then you'll probably always have people playing it and it especially around like a new drop of content.

And it helps that it's a new hand. Can't. Well, it's not a new hand cannon.

It's.

It's exile or no, not exiles.

Curse.

I just exiled Truth. I knew there was exile in there. Exalted.

So the roles I got was so terrible.

But it's got a bunch of new, like, void keyword perks on it. Like demoralized and some other things.

I think I got. I think I got destabilizing rounds and just something terrible. And it was like, it wasn't good for PvE or PvP. Just like.

Yeah.

And then the other one was terrible as well. Zen moment. Either Storm, which is. All right, cool stability, but like, the range on it was poopy bad. Yeah.

Well, and then there's. You can get mag howl on it and things like that if that's kind of your jam. So ultimately it's like it's a new. It's a new gun kind of. And I think because part of it too is people don't. People didn't like it the first time it came out, even though I had a decent role on it that I like and still have. But ultimately it's. It's kind of like you said, it's. It's a new season, new rewards. It's never been easier to go to the Lighthouse. All you have to do is just suffer through seven wins and you'll get rewards. And. And there's like, they've increased the drops as well. Like after the game is so, like, you just passively get a bunch of weapons and engrams and like, I played so much trials yesterday, I almost reset my reputation with Saint 14, and I've never done that, like, in one kind of session before. So, like, I, I've been enjoying it, like, a lot. I had a couple of resets that I'm not proud of. Reset my card, I should say. But yeah, I, I, I. They finally kind of like, yeah, maybe they should have done these like, a while ago. But I'm glad that they've done it and I think it'll. It'll at least for the short term, keep the pool healthy. I think what needs to happen is, like, you know, there's a new set of armor that also came out, so that's exciting. And there's probably people who are so backlogged on a bunch of the other armor that they've never gotten that there's a lot of, like, loot to chase. So I think, I think the changes are good. I hope that it stays around a little Bit longer and keeps the pool healthy, but we'll have to see. But I think overall some good changes.

So lastly, we do we do we want to touch on the dungeon?

Just very brief.

I have not played it very briefly.

Just what are your initial thoughts? And then we'll talk about it at a later time. Okay.

Yeah.

So this will kind of. This will be our last topic and this will kind of tease into our next episode. We will talk about the dungeon when Maps played it and in a separate episode when we have more time.

Sorry guys.

A full episode to talk about sunroduction because there's a lot of stuff to talk about, but first impressions. Sunder Doctrine. I think it's really good. I had a lot of fun playing it. Obviously I have critiques of it, but I think it's up there. I think it's very fun. New endgame content. I think the aesthetic could be improved. I'm a little sick of pyramid stuff for sure, but mechanically I think it's fun. The story is really good. The weapons are insanely good. The new hand cannon is awesome. Firefly voltshot rolls on the scout rifle. I mean, that's cool as hell. So a lot of cool stuff there. I think the boss fight is ultimately still less tedious than Vespers the puppeteer. So that's a plus.

That thing in the lower stacks.

Yeah.

Overall I think it's pretty good. But Rob, what did you think?

So I don't. So I. I like the dungeon overall. First encounter, not a huge fan of. And again, we'll talk all about this and it could just also be like, I'm still learning it. Second encounter is like not intuitive. And I still, I've done it like two or three times and every time I've done it, I've. We've brute forced it, which is like probably not really how you want to design an encounter. But I think all of that is made up for in the final encounter, which to your point, is not tedious at all. And in fact it's rewards you for.

Being good at it.

I feel like, yes, it rewards you for being good. And ultimately, if you're in a stack of three, you can get it done even faster because you can divide and conquer into the three rooms and kind of, you know, if you need to. And, and ultimately I was reading this on Reddit and I didn't quite understand it until I got to the dungeon where it's like, it encourages you to know the lore because if you know, if you know what the truth and what the lie is you're. And I'm. You know, these aren't huge revelations in the lore. Like, you know, Savathun is. Is Zavala's brother or something. Like, it's not that level of law or something. But the, the statements. Yeah, I know. Right? But the statements are such that if you know them and are comfortable with them, you can also get the encounter done that much faster because you can read them and immediately go, okay, we need to do this, this, and this. And so it's like, I think I really like the third encounter, and I think it makes up for the other two a lot. And I, I. Fortunately, the other two encounters aren't too egregious. I think the first one runs a little long, but it's ultimately not hard, so it's fine. But I do think the, the third encounter is. Is where it really shines. And when I saw that it was symbols again from Val of the Disciple, I was ready to punch a window. But fortunately it's not too bad, so I.

All right, well, we can get into.

I love Val more.

I like. I like Vow too. And I have the Disciple Slayer title. I just don't. I like part I. The. The symbols are not as egregious in Vow as they are in Last Wish, because the Last Wish symbols are kind of explicitly why I don't like running Last Wish, because the. The symbols are way too samey in Last Wish, where it's like, oh, it's a fish. Well, what kind of fish is it? The one that's facing left or right? The one that's kelp in front of it? Or like, like it's. It's too. Too many syllables that you need to get out to describe it. Whereas this, you can say, you know, kill, stop, guardian, light. Like, it's super easy. Like, it's just more. And. And that feels like an iteration of like, hey, we realized that the symbols are way too samey in. In Last Wish, and these all feel distinct. And I've done it so many times now that I feel more comfortable with the call outs. Whereas, like, I still. I still call UWU Snake. UWU Snake, even though I know that's not what it's called, and I have no idea what it's actually called. And I, at this point, I'm too afraid to ask, so I.

So we can dive into this more. But I. The. I will say the final encounter, I like it now that I understand how to do it, and it's fun. But as far as, like, a blind experience, it just. It makes zero sense. And I feel like it sucks as far as a blind experience because how in the actual hell was I. Were you ever supposed to figure that out? Yeah, I feel like there are, like, no indicators for that whatsoever. And it takes a mechanic from the first encounter and says, no, do it opposite this time.

Yeah, I know. And that's like, what. And that's always been my biggest complaint about the duality dungeon, where up to the final boss, every time you shoot a totem, it takes it. It swaps dimensions. But for some reason on the Kaitl boss, you shoot it to stun her and stay in that dimension. And that is bad design.

I agree. And. Well, that's the problem with. Well, that surprises me that you like.

This boss because it's like, once you. So I. I don't disagree with you on. I know we're being super, like, vague about what the. The issue is. I don't disagree with you because I agree.

I don't want to, like, spoil it for Mavif.

I agree that it's a problem and it's not intentional intuitive. And when we.

I'll.

I'll fess up to this. When we got to that part of the boss encounter, because we tried it and we kind of got stuck and we looked it up and it was like, oh, you do the opposite. And it was like, okay, that's kind of frustrating. I think. I think what I. What I was more bothered by and annoyed by, and this is still just kind of a problem, is the doors that you have to shoot to open.

That door sucks.

Sorry, my French one. Oh, my. No, it. It sucks. It's the first time we did it. We got stuck in the one room and it was like your ghost kind of does that little, like, alert thing and you go up to it and it's like, you know what they should have done? This is where it's like, the game should teach you to. To do this. It's like the first time you go up to the door, your ghost should be like, there's definitely something on the other side, but this door's not shooting or opening. I don't know. Just try shooting it or something. You know, like, have there be some kind of silly, like, in game explanation of just like, well, I don't know. Just try shooting it. That always seems to work. And then you do, and that causes the door to, you know, kind of open up. And I don't like that. It feels like you have to almost use like, an auto rifle or something with fast fire. Rate to open those doors. And it's like, if I want to use a scout rifle, I'm like, hinder.

It's like, what was that encounter in Leviathan where it was basically more beneficial for you to use, like, an auto or a pulse than a single file?

Oh, yeah.

You know, the running one where you have to shoot the two things. It was just better if you shot it with an auto because, like that.

Yeah, there's a.

You didn't have to say. They're reloading all the time.

There's doors that open up, and you have. It's kind of a long hallway that opens, and there's a few different places you have to do it, and you have to keep fire on it to keep it open, because otherwise, if you stop, it slowly closes. You can die like, mid traversal. And so you. If you're like.

It's, like, so inconsistent.

Yeah, yeah. And exactly. So it's like if one of your buddies is like, oh, it's almost kind of like in Vow the Disciple, where someone goes in and does something in a room, and then you have to open the door for them to come out when they've grabbed the symbols. It's kind of like that very, very, very basic explanation. But to open the doors, it's really, really irritating because, yeah, you have to keep sustained fire on it, and if you don't, then they'll get squished and die. And it's like. So I guess it's kind of funny you could pull a prank on your friends, but, like, it's. It's not intuitive on how to open the door because it's not like anything we've ever done before, which, like, it's fine to have new kind of puzzly things, like I. Because the dungeon itself has a lot of like. Like the traversal section. Rather than having these long jumping puzzles, it's more like you're in a room with a puzzle that you have to solve to advance. And. And I will say, once you know the solution, you can get it done way, way quicker than, like, let's say, like, Ghost of the Deep, where that whole jumping puzzle part takes the same amount of time if it's your first time versus your 70th time, because there's no shortcuts, there's no way to, like, really speed through it. Whereas this is like, the more you kind of memorize what the solutions for some of those middle puzzles are that are just sort of to, like, traverse the area, you can get done so much quicker. So I don't mind them. Like, for now, we're still kind of learning them. And, like, I. I. There's one where you have to get the two lights on opposite sides. I still kind of struggle with that a little bit, but I. That's one of those, right? Definitely. At a certain point, I'm just gonna know what to do, and it'll go a lot quicker. So. Yeah, it's just.

I like that final boss encounter. Like, now. Like, I think it rewards you very well. It flows very well.

It's.

You know, generally, it's pretty fun. There's a lot of cool stuff about that fight. It's just a blind experience. I remember when we were doing this, and, I don't know, it was late, and Ryan needed to go do something, and he's like, all right, guys, I'm gonna be honest. I did look it up. I just looked it up right now, and we're like, okay. And he's like, I will tell you, you probably would have never figured this out. He's like, I'll give you some hints. And he was giving us hints, and we're like, what? Like, how does that do anything? He's like. And then he explained it, and I'm like, how was I supposed to figure that out? Like, the wheel. There's, like, no indicator that it's supposed to be that way. Like, divided.

Yeah. No, I agree. Yeah. Okay. Let's save it for the rest of the. Now we're getting into the weeds. No, but you're absolutely right. Like, yeah, play the. Play the dungeon map, and we'll talk about it next time, because it's a cool dungeon. I will say they have done a good job of, like, every dungeon feels different from every other dungeon, like, thematically and yes. Like, I. This doesn't feel like recycled content. Like, even though we're going back to the pyramid ship in the throne world.

Oh, yeah. No, I like. I like the. I like the pyramid environment, so I'm not bored of them. I know some people are, but I still enjoy.

They still at least, like, update the pyramid environment a little bit in the sense that it's, you know, it's. I don't know, it's very, like Indiana Jones, where it's, like, this, like, tomb.

Yeah.

There's, like, vines and stuff everywhere.

Yeah. And I will say now, after. After playing, like, the Final Shape, the Salvation's Edge Raid, playing Lightfall and playing Witch Queen, each one of those pyramid ships does feel different enough that it doesn't feel like you're going through the same Pyramid ship. Yeah, that's true.

You know, it does feel too Sammy, though.

What?

Salvation's Edge.

Yeah.

That's just like, visually, aesthetically.

Yeah. We should talk about that raid sometime. But it's really unfortunate that the. The quote unquote, like, Witness Showdown, that that raid ultimately sucks. And I will stand by that. I. I probably hate that raid the most of the current raids that we have.

Damn. Even more than Root of Nightmares.

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah. If for. From a. Like. Hey, let's just. Let's do a pickup raid real quick. I would do Root of Nightmares seven times before I did Salvation's Edge again, I think. Okay, maybe. Maybe I'm being hyperbolic, but I would. I would take Root Nightmares every time over Salvation's Edge.

Valid.

All right.

I think that about closes out the episode. We'll talk about Sunder Doctrine next. Next time. I think we'll do a whole deep dive into it. There's a lot to talk about.

Yep.

But anyways, thank you guys for hopping on and chatting. I really appreciate you, as always. Thank you, folks, for listening. Go check us out at Twitch. We stream, I don't know, semi infrequently. We stream sometimes and go follow us on. I don't know. We don't even use Twitter anymore. Do we Instagram or something?

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Bye. You can put this voice recording away and go on with your life, because you and I both know you'd have me yapping in your ear for the rest of your days.

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